Why throw up? He is essentially right. While the land has been referred to as Palestine for time immemorial (a name that the Romans gave the land, ironically, just to piss off the Jews at the time) its never been a state. The state itself was, like nearly every other Arab state, a construct of Sykes-Picot. So the Palestinians have never been "Palestinians" as an official group of people - Its just a reference to the group of Arabs that lived on the land. The major piece of rubbish in the article is the old "land without a people" myth.
Of course, its what he omits that is what makes the article such pseudo-historic clap trap- He omits to mention that it is as much a crime to ethnically cleanse a people from their land whether they belong to a state or not.
He omits to mention that there has been no Palestinian "state" for the same reason that there was no Israeli "state", in that for the last 2000 years the land has been part of one empire or another.
And most importantly, he tries to portray the colonizing zionists as the "real" Palestinians - Obviously like most myth repeaters, he enjoys never having read a property history book- Otherwise he would know that the Jews of Palestine never left to go to Europe and Russia. They are what we call today, the Palestinians.
It seems there has been a rash of myth aggrandizing articles of late. It seems the old myths are the last straws the zionistas have to cling to.
From the dead to the med, no less, no compromise.
p.s. Have you guys heard of Shadia Mansour? I just discovered her music. Arabic hip hop with great lyrics - Kollon Eendon Dababaat wa nahnaa ana hjaar....
"And most importantly, he tries to portray the colonizing zionists as the "real" Palestinians - Obviously like most myth repeaters, he enjoys never having read a property history book- Otherwise he would know that the Jews of Palestine never left to go to Europe and Russia."
ABSTRACT For more than a century, Jews and non-Jews alike have tried to define the relatedness of contemporary Jewish people. Previous genetic studies of blood group and serum markers suggested that Jewish groups had Middle Eastern origin with greater genetic similarity between paired Jewish populations. However, these and successor studies of monoallelic Y chromosomal and mitochondrial genetic markers did not resolve the issues of within and between-group Jewish genetic identity. Here, genome-wide analysis of seven Jewish groups (Iranian, Iraqi, Syrian, Italian, Turkish, Greek, and Ashkenazi) and comparison with non-Jewish groups demonstrated distinctive Jewish population clusters, each with shared Middle Eastern ancestry, proximity to contemporary Middle Eastern populations, and variable degrees of European and North African admixture. Two major groups were identified by principal component, phylogenetic, and identity by descent (IBD) analysis: Middle Eastern Jews and European/Syrian Jews. The IBD segment sharing and the proximity of European Jews to each other and to southern European populations suggested similar origins for European Jewry and refuted large-scale genetic contributions of Central and Eastern European and Slavic populations to the formation of Ashkenazi Jewry. Rapid decay of IBD in Ashkenazi Jewish genomes was consistent with a severe bottleneck followed by large expansion, such as occurred with the so-called demographic miracle of population expansion from 50,000 people at the beginning of the 15th century to 5,000,000 people at the beginning of the 19th century. Thus, this study demonstrates that European/Syrian and Middle Eastern Jews represent a series of geographical isolates or clusters woven together by shared IBD genetic threads.
Shlomo Sand calls this an "attempt to justify Zionism through genetics" which only proves him an ideologist and a well-meaning idiot.
The past wouldn't trump the present if we were talking about descendants of the Puritans and second generation Brits from South Asia, and it sure as hell doesn't trump the rights of Muslim descendants of Jews who never left the fucking middle east. Zionism is racism not science.
I'm a Jew. I'm a descendant of those who left. I have no "right" of return.
Anon, That is basically what I said. Zionism likes to propogate the myth that the Jews were forced out of Palestine by the Romans. My point seems to be no different to yours which is that the Jewish population of Palestine did not mass migrate but in fact remained and became what we call the Palestinians - I'm not saying that the Jewish population of any other country is unrelated.
mo -- even if one agrees with that initial point, the rest of the piece is pretty vomit inducing. the talkbacks as usual are a yet more revolting garnish to the article. and the palestinians are supposed to be the ones who aren't partners for peace?!?
anyways, what drives me CRAZY about this tired argument regurgitated by mr. dann is that, as he concedes!, one of the main reason for a lack of earlier 'nationalism' is that, and i quote, "affiliations are primarily familial and tribal -- not national." which is precisely why you can't just toss the palestinian refugees at other arab countries, or even the west bank and gaza. their identities were rooted in their individual villages and districts.
arguing against 'palestinianism', IMO, only strengthens the argument for right of return.
Anon, If it makes you feel any less nauseous, these tired arguments they are serving are old and have been refuted so many times that Israelis had given up on them. Seeing them re-emerge like this makes me think that they are running out of ideas. They are losing one war after another, whether its a war of guns, war of ideas or war of PR. Their center and left leaning populations are leaving the country and their numbers in ratio to the Palestinians will continue to fall.
5 comments:
Why throw up? He is essentially right. While the land has been referred to as Palestine for time immemorial (a name that the Romans gave the land, ironically, just to piss off the Jews at the time) its never been a state. The state itself was, like nearly every other Arab state, a construct of Sykes-Picot. So the Palestinians have never been "Palestinians" as an official group of people - Its just a reference to the group of Arabs that lived on the land. The major piece of rubbish in the article is the old "land without a people" myth.
Of course, its what he omits that is what makes the article such pseudo-historic clap trap- He omits to mention that it is as much a crime to ethnically cleanse a people from their land whether they belong to a state or not.
He omits to mention that there has been no Palestinian "state" for the same reason that there was no Israeli "state", in that for the last 2000 years the land has been part of one empire or another.
And most importantly, he tries to portray the colonizing zionists as the "real" Palestinians - Obviously like most myth repeaters, he enjoys never having read a property history book- Otherwise he would know that the Jews of Palestine never left to go to Europe and Russia. They are what we call today, the Palestinians.
It seems there has been a rash of myth aggrandizing articles of late. It seems the old myths are the last straws the zionistas have to cling to.
From the dead to the med, no less, no compromise.
p.s. Have you guys heard of Shadia Mansour? I just discovered her music. Arabic hip hop with great lyrics - Kollon Eendon Dababaat wa nahnaa ana hjaar....
"And most importantly, he tries to portray the colonizing zionists as the "real" Palestinians - Obviously like most myth repeaters, he enjoys never having read a property history book- Otherwise he would know that the Jews of Palestine never left to go to Europe and Russia."
Wrong.
The American Journal of Human Genetics
"Abraham's Children in the Genome Era: Major Jewish Diaspora Populations Comprise Distinct Genetic Clusters with Shared Middle Eastern Ancestry"
ABSTRACT
For more than a century, Jews and non-Jews alike have tried to define the relatedness of contemporary Jewish people. Previous genetic studies of blood group and serum markers suggested that Jewish groups had Middle Eastern origin with greater genetic similarity between paired Jewish populations. However, these and successor studies of monoallelic Y chromosomal and mitochondrial genetic markers did not resolve the issues of within and between-group Jewish genetic identity. Here, genome-wide analysis of seven Jewish groups (Iranian, Iraqi, Syrian, Italian, Turkish, Greek, and Ashkenazi) and comparison with non-Jewish groups demonstrated distinctive Jewish population clusters, each with shared Middle Eastern ancestry, proximity to contemporary Middle Eastern populations, and variable degrees of European and North African admixture. Two major groups were identified by principal component, phylogenetic, and identity by descent (IBD) analysis: Middle Eastern Jews and European/Syrian Jews. The IBD segment sharing and the proximity of European Jews to each other and to southern European populations suggested similar origins for European Jewry and refuted large-scale genetic contributions of Central and Eastern European and Slavic populations to the formation of Ashkenazi Jewry. Rapid decay of IBD in Ashkenazi Jewish genomes was consistent with a severe bottleneck followed by large expansion, such as occurred with the so-called demographic miracle of population expansion from 50,000 people at the beginning of the 15th century to 5,000,000 people at the beginning of the 19th century. Thus, this study demonstrates that European/Syrian and Middle Eastern Jews represent a series of geographical isolates or clusters woven together by shared IBD genetic threads.
Shlomo Sand calls this an "attempt to justify Zionism through genetics" which only proves him an ideologist and a well-meaning idiot.
The past wouldn't trump the present if we were talking about descendants of the Puritans and second generation Brits from South Asia, and it sure as hell doesn't trump the rights of Muslim descendants of Jews who never left the fucking middle east. Zionism is racism not science.
I'm a Jew. I'm a descendant of those who left. I have no "right" of return.
Anon,
That is basically what I said. Zionism likes to propogate the myth that the Jews were forced out of Palestine by the Romans. My point seems to be no different to yours which is that the Jewish population of Palestine did not mass migrate but in fact remained and became what we call the Palestinians - I'm not saying that the Jewish population of any other country is unrelated.
mo -- even if one agrees with that initial point, the rest of the piece is pretty vomit inducing. the talkbacks as usual are a yet more revolting garnish to the article. and the palestinians are supposed to be the ones who aren't partners for peace?!?
anyways, what drives me CRAZY about this tired argument regurgitated by mr. dann is that, as he concedes!, one of the main reason for a lack of earlier 'nationalism' is that, and i quote, "affiliations are primarily familial and tribal -- not national." which is precisely why you can't just toss the palestinian refugees at other arab countries, or even the west bank and gaza. their identities were rooted in their individual villages and districts.
arguing against 'palestinianism', IMO, only strengthens the argument for right of return.
Anon,
If it makes you feel any less nauseous, these tired arguments they are serving are old and have been refuted so many times that Israelis had given up on them. Seeing them re-emerge like this makes me think that they are running out of ideas. They are losing one war after another, whether its a war of guns, war of ideas or war of PR. Their center and left leaning populations are leaving the country and their numbers in ratio to the Palestinians will continue to fall.
Time is not on Israel's side.
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